face of science in its effort to recapture the public imagination. But
someone else’s words off a Teleprompter. Those words, and damn near
about climate change and evolution. Those on the creationist or
literal-minded idiocy of the Answers in Genesis crowd. She describes
Druyan is well aware that many religious people would reject those
characterizations, and those snippets may make her philosophical
approach sound less generous and open-minded than it really is. While
she is profoundly uncomfortable with the artificial wall between the
domains of science and religion erected by Stephen Jay Gould’s famous
pronouncement that they are “non-overlapping magisteria,” she welcomes
discussion of seemingly indefinable and unscientific concepts like
sacredness and spirituality. Those things are to be found at a capacious
and more evolved level, she argues, by leaving behind “our infantile
sense of centrality in the universe,” in which we are the precious
offspring of a benevolent protector, and instead shifting our focus to
the profound and immense mysteries presented by “13 billion years of
cosmic evolution and four and a half billion years of the story of life
on this planet.”
During my all-too-brief phone conversation with
Druyan, we also discussed her brilliant rereading of the story of the
Garden of Eden, which she sees as the story of humanity’s escape from “a
maximum-security prison with 24-hour surveillance.” Adam and Eve’s
capital offense is that they seek knowledge and ask questions, precisely
the qualities that define the human species. At least in that story,
God appears to demand a subservient and doctrinaire incuriosity, and
many of his followers continue to insist on that path to this day. There
are certainly currents within the major religious traditions that
resist such a simple-minded negation of science – Buddhism, Judaism and
the Catholic Church are now OK, generally speaking, with both evolution
and cosmology – but Druyan’s provocative critique of religion as a
distorting social force is well worth considering even if you think her
argument is too sweeping.
One mistake Druyan never makes, either
in “Cosmos” or anywhere else, is the arrogant historicism sometimes
displayed by Richard Dawkins and other prominent scientific atheists. By
that I mean the quasi-religious assumption that we stand at a uniquely
privileged position of near-perfect scientific knowledge, with just a
few blanks to fill in before we understand everything about the
universe. “I’m sure most of what we all hold dearest and cherish most,
believing at this very moment,” Druyan has said, “will be revealed at
some future time to be merely a product of our age and our history and
our understanding of reality.” Science as a process, as “the
never-ending search for truth,” is sacred. But what we now know, or
think we know, is always a matter for humility and doubt.
Ann,
I know I’m not the first person to bring this up, but you’ve done two
versions of this show where, you know, a prominent male scientist was
on-screen and you were behind the scenes. The first time around, of
course, it was your husband, and this time it’s Neil Tyson. Because he’s
standing in front of the cameras, everybody thinks of him as the
creator of the show. What’s going on with that?
That is a
funny thing, isn’t that? I am a little bit surprised when critics, who I
think are more likely to read the credits with some degree of
attention, talk about the show as if Neil has had something to do with
its inception or its writing. In the case of Carl it was different.
Obviously Carl was the senior partner in conceiving the show with me and
[astronomer] Steven Soter. And so, I mean, I am kind of taken aback.
But then I look at the brilliance of Neil’s performance, and how
unexpectedly he has taken what I wrote and given it its best possible
expression on the show. So I love the guy. I guess that’s the plight of
the writer. It is coming out of someone else’s mouth; people think it
must be theirs. It’s a natural reaction.
It’s funny,
though. I mean, I’m a movie critic, and I don’t think people are
confused when they go to see a movie and Johnny Depp is up there playing
a character. They pretty much get the concept that somebody wrote those
lines for him. But they don’t seem to understand that in this case.
They
don’t, and that’s because, you know, Neil is a scientist and a writer
also. So it’s not that great a leap to think that this is his material.
And of course, it was true for Carl too, in a much greater degree. So it
all makes sense. I’m happy. I mean, look, I can’t get the fact that
this show has played in something like 181 countries, and in the vast
majority of them it’s been an off-the-scale success. For someone who
started out on this road seven years ago, this is the best possible
outcome I could have imagined.
How have you felt about the
degree of pushback from religious folks? You’ve been very clear about
embracing the scientific consensus that climate change is the result of
human activity, that evolution by natural selection is a fact, and that
the age of the universe is not in dispute. I’m sure you were expecting
some resistance to all that.
Actually, it’s been the
relative meekness of the reaction that has really surprised me. I
thought that, you know, taking on the human origins of global warming or
even evolution via natural selection, that saying it so frontally would
result in a big pushback. But it hasn’t come to that. I guess I
expected, never having worked with Fox and National Geographic before, I
was expecting when I submitted my script that, you know, the vice
president of Standards & Practices or whoever would come back with
some issues. And yet it was just the opposite. It was, you know, letters
in all caps saying, “I cannot wait to see this show on television.
Thank you!” So, you know, life is so rarely what I expect it to be.
The
things that I was steeling myself for just didn’t happen. I mean, you
know, the negative reaction to the scientific ideas that are at the
heart of the series was really different and very mild. I have to be
honest. I have read a smattering of those from sources where I could
sort of anticipate what the reaction would be. I did go there. And, you
know, it seemed like it was more in sorrow than in anger. [Laughter.] I
didn’t see anything personally that was disturbing. Mostly, it was just
people who disagreed.
You’ve been pretty outspoken over
the years about your views of religious myth and its relationship to
science. You’ve talked at times about the desire to reclaim some of the
sense of mystery or daring or even spirituality that could
hypothetically be associated with science. Is this show to be considered
as part of that struggle, as an attempt to recapture the mystery and
power of science in the public imagination?
That’s
beautifully said. And you know, I could speak to that. Yes, I mean, what
always has surprised me personally is that the revelations about nature
and the universe that science has presented to us are not just, you
know, more likely to be better approximations of natural reality than
we’ve gotten from any other source, but they’re also way more
spiritually satisfying than anything we’ve ever been able to make up.
You know, our interpretations of nature that are not rooted in nature at
all and that are anthropocentric are kind of the infantile idealized
visions of us as the center of the universe. As the children of a very
disappointed father. [Laughter.]
You know, that stuff just leaves
me cold. I’m sorry; it doesn’t really do anything for me. But the idea,
you know, that we are, in my view, a species in search of fulfillment is
something very real. And we used to get it from theory, you know, that
we were literally special. That we were created apart from all of
nature. We can’t get that anymore once you understand a mountain of
evidence from DNA and many other independent causalities, which seems to
create our oneness with all of life. I think we’re being brave. We’re
looking at reality as it really is, we’re being brave enough and
grown-up enough to know how tiny we truly are. “Cosmos,” in the original
and in this incarnation, is intended to teach and familiarize the
broadest possible audience with some of the insights and methods of
science and some of its heroes, but also to make you
feel what
science is telling us. Personally, I think that’s important. We’re
embracing these challenges that can only be solved through science.
We’re looking at the universe and trying to understand how it’s put
together, and you can’t see that without science. There’s only one way
to see that.
This is too big a topic for a phone
conversation, maybe, but you personally seem not to feel any need for
the kind of — I don’t know — consolation or mystical fulfillment that
myth and religion traditionally supplied. Is it that you don’t feel or
understand that need, or is it that you think science can ultimately
provide the same sense of largeness and mystery, the same space for
asking what may be unanswerable questions?
Yeah, yeah.
And you see, I have no problem asking the unanswerable questions, or in
asking the as-yet-unanswerable questions. I have no problem with asking
them, and I certainly have no issue with how we get through those dark
nights of the soul by answering them. I would never presume to tell
anyone how to answer them for themselves, not even my own children. I
wouldn’t even think of it. I can only speak for myself when I say,
“Yeah, asking questions – the more the better.” It’s just that if you
come up with answers that make no adjustment to the scale of space and
time that we find ourselves in, we see a failure of the imagination.
But, you know, in terms of asking those questions, yeah, I think that is
the origin of so much of what we as human beings are capable of.
Well,
I think people still look to religion as a zone for certain questions
that science has no way to approach. You know, does the universe have
some pattern or meaning behind it, even if we cannot discern it? Why is
there something instead of nothing at all?
Oh, yes. Yes,
that is Leibniz. That’s his favorite question. In “The Varieties of
Scientific Experience” [a memoir co-authored by Druyan and Sagan], in
the introduction, I wrote about that in the context of a note that I
found in Carl’s handwriting. He had taken that paragraph [from Leibniz],
summarized it and then written something in the margins. You know,
Leibniz goes on to say, and I’m paraphrasing, “What would happen if we
did not, you know, stop asking that question? Where would we go? We’d
have to say God, because that’s the only place we could stop asking that
question.”
So Carl wrote, in his beautiful Brooklyn public school
handwriting, “So don’t stop.” I found that after his death, and it was
like hearing his voice. And it was like, exactly, I couldn’t agree more.
Why is God telling me to stop asking questions? When we defied God by
tasting of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, that’s how we became
ourselves. You know, God may not like that part of us, but I do.
You’ve
written a lot about the public mistrust of science or estrangement from
science. But surely you must understand it pretty well. I’ve read your
brilliant exegesis on the Garden of Eden as a totalitarian prison with
24-hour surveillance, which actually parallels an account by the German
philosophers Max Horkheimer and Theodor Adorno. Their subject is the
relationship between myth and enlightenment, and they see that story as
an ironic parable that exposes the dangers of both. But they were
writing in the late 1940s, in the wake of the Holocaust and the
Hiroshima bombing. So the downside of the Enlightenment tradition that
produced modern science was pretty obvious.
Absolutely.
You know, in every episode of “Cosmos,” we have been very insistent
about putting every part of science out for scrutiny, of course. You see
the explosion of Tsar Bomba [in 1961], which was the largest
thermonuclear explosion on the surface of the earth. Has science known
sin? Absolutely. We’ve misused everything that we have at our disposal.
How could we not misuse science?
Like everything else that we
have, science has known sin. I mean, there is no such thing as a human
enterprise that is not riddled with error and crime. We carry that
evolutionary baggage with us wherever we go. Carl often used to say that
the question is which of those tendencies that we have — the tendency
to nurture, to collaborate, to share, or the tendency to dominate – is
likely to win out. Do we really want to use technology for cruelty? It
all depends on what kind of society we live in: one that really tries to
actualize cooperation, or one that wants to return the highest reward?
That part is up to us; we have the capacity to optimize for one set of
traits or the other. And, you know, that’s the real substance of it:
Which part of ourselves will win?
“Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey” is now available on Blu-ray and DVD, in an expanded edition box set with many extras. The original episodes can also be viewed on Hulu.
